Episode #1 Q2 - The race is on | Guest Sebastian Wolf

00:00:00: In Europe there's a little bit less enthusiasm about batteries.

00:00:03: It was just eye-opening for me to be that in person and see China with the pace, an automation... it is so impressive!

00:00:12: Europe

00:00:13: promotes growth of Gigafactories rather by regulation

00:00:16: instead

00:00:17: of actual profits.

00:00:18: So what we have as mission and basically founded a company called Wolf Energy which we announced today Is when you bring affordable sustainable and resilient energy to everyone.

00:00:31: The battery industry

00:00:32: has

00:00:33: never moved faster as in the last three quarters

00:00:37: And our target is get a ten cents

00:00:38: per kilowatt hour.

00:00:39: Do that

00:00:40: You know, energy's at the core of everything Right?

00:00:43: Energy is the core Of society's core economy.

00:00:47: So it all about bringing energy A foldable energy for everyone.

00:00:51: On contrast I say we need be partners.

00:00:54: We need work with

00:00:55: one team Lauren!

00:01:18: Chris, I can't believe we're doing this!

00:01:22: We planned so long for it.

00:01:25: It's interesting yeah.

00:01:26: So i'm really happy...I hope you see that Doing that together with you A podcast Yeah?

00:01:33: So.. I never imagined myself sitting here on a battery show recording a podcast With You And This is Battery Matters.

00:01:41: So ..i guess we will introduce you little bit more to what That Is.

00:01:46: Yes, so we came up with the idea of Battery Matters.

00:01:51: Chris from a battery news perspective and myself from Volta Foundation were putting a lot of information out there in this.

00:01:58: all for us about clarity realism And just growing that the battery ecosystem.

00:02:04: It has made sense to come together and do that share stories and kind of integrate the industry.

00:02:14: What About The Name?

00:02:16: Yes, so Batu Matters is basically the last quarter kind of an overview of The Last Quarter and how that's been.

00:02:24: And then the quarter going forward.

00:02:31: And I think the main thing for us is that the industry changes so much.

00:02:36: So you can't have this like overview of the year, it really has to be kind of from quarter-to-quarter.

00:02:42: and i think The Key Thing For Us Is Also About Optimism.

00:02:44: We Are So Passionate And we Care So Much about This Industry And We Just Want To Kind Of Show That There's Real Hope Out There.

00:02:53: Yes, Positivity

00:02:55: Yeah!

00:02:55: Thats Also What Drives Me A Lot That We Showed That There are success stories.

00:03:00: that's possible around the globe, not just here in Europe.

00:03:03: Also North America and Asia but even Africa South America Australia all other continents.

00:03:09: we normally don't hear much about it.

00:03:12: so for me I want to connect this kind of different spots And i think uh... In discussion on these podcasts We created a logo connecting the ecosystems creating global overview.

00:03:26: To be honest with you It was also because we know now I think three four years.

00:03:30: We have run into each other on each conference and probably

00:03:34: this one quite a few times, the battery show in Europe

00:03:38: had also some interesting stories and drinks together And i think...we needed to make more out of it.

00:03:46: So with Walter Foundation worked on The Battery Report.

00:03:51: It's such a great network!

00:03:53: I think it fits very well and even cooler to do it now in person with you.

00:04:03: But for all who don't know Lauren, maybe a short introduction?

00:04:07: Who are you?

00:04:08: Short introductions.

00:04:09: so yeah, Lauren Allenson member development at Volta Foundation.

00:04:14: Volta foundation is a trade association for the battery industry The global battery industry And we are the voice of the battery Industry.

00:04:22: but prior that worked as a quality engineer in an automotive company.

00:04:28: So I feel like i've done this kind of full circle moment, being in the battery industry very techie forward thinking and yeah I'm just so pleased that I fell into it.

00:04:42: to be honest

00:04:45: Should I introduce myself?

00:04:46: Yeah you go ahead Chris.

00:04:47: So Chris Linneman director partner at promotion also at www.batterynews.com I started in the battery industry actually at two thousand nine.

00:04:57: And i was lucky to be part of their first sweet scooter team.

00:05:00: It's a startup from Aachen, Germany.

00:05:03: They developed an electric vehicle for the DHL Deutsche Post and ultimately sold it.

00:05:10: We have now more than thirty-thousand vehicles on the road.

00:05:13: Since then im somehow electrified but also passionate about batteries About energy.

00:05:19: that continued Then i studied in Aachen Mechanical Engineering.

00:05:23: I studied also in China at the Qingyue University, did my master there where i also met our guest.

00:05:29: You will see later.

00:05:30: and we stayed connected since then, stayed both in the battery industry after this study continued At the Pem Institute of the Aachen university as a group lead for battery production.

00:05:43: so very focused on production planning ramping up the production but also that research on the circularity of batteries because the question how we can really create a sustainable battery ecosystem.

00:05:57: So yeah, last five years then I was building the business in North America at locations of Mexico and California.

00:06:08: We did have a joint venture on Canada as well.

00:06:10: so quite some travelling and meeting you on various events.

00:06:15: Well, going to say so if we go back to the battery show in Detroit twenty-twenty three that's when I saw our guest how speaker oh on stage!

00:06:26: And i'd literally just got into the battery industry.

00:06:29: So it was amazing that were here unable to interview this person In person?

00:06:35: We shouldn't tease her too much now.

00:06:38: but Too much teasing

00:06:39: Too much teasing.

00:06:40: Yeah, so this battery matter podcast is about the last quarter.

00:06:45: So let's start with this What were your takes

00:06:50: on that spoiler?

00:06:52: I actually attended CIBF not long ago A couple of weeks ago and it was just eye-opening for me to be there in person And see China with a pace and automation so impressive, fascinating to see a lot of the equipment manufacturers producing equipment for semi-solid and solid states.

00:07:14: And I think it just shows how much we need to learn from China and partner with China.

00:07:22: you kind of bridge that gap between China and the Western world.

00:07:26: So that's been really insightful For me specifically.

00:07:30: How about you?

00:07:31: Yeah, so while on the CIBF I was in the AABC.

00:07:36: for me that's a bit sad.

00:07:37: It wasn't really crowded at all and it was much more intense and crowded And also here is smaller than last year.

00:07:50: In Europe there are less enthusiasm with batteries maybe not yet dead.

00:07:56: There were new business cases especially in the best and to the defense industry, for example where there's enthusiasm visible.

00:08:06: But Gigafactory Dreams I think are somehow a little bit less enthusiastic.

00:08:13: here we still have players And then i do think We need sell manufacturing year but it some all changed also over last years

00:08:21: or with me being from the UK, like I can see it more than an R&D standpoint.

00:08:25: There's lots of different technologies which are quite exciting you know?

00:08:30: Like Nioball for instance they've raised a tonne money that had cadmium no niobium and then you have Titanball as well based in the UK LTO.

00:08:47: so there is some different chemistries.

00:08:50: Yeah a lot of innovation happening on the material level, yeah under structure also, quantum skate launching now and pilot production.

00:08:59: so there's a lot happening.

00:09:01: I think it is just at a different scale.

00:09:04: i would say very cool technology behind that from what I've seen.

00:09:11: So for many top three things in last quarter we saw were raised again after many years of price decline.

00:09:23: It's interesting, it shows that especially the lithium and the lithium refining gets very important and crucial for the industry And also its independence.

00:09:34: So looking at a global strategic level Yeah...it is just becoming an asset to have both the minerals and value chain but also the refining technology behind.

00:09:49: Then you mentioned new chemistries, solid state technology with Sprint & Scape.

00:09:55: Launch in their production.

00:09:57: it's still no gigascale and not comparable to Northwold but they do have a collaboration with Powerco so I think we will see also some scale up there.

00:10:07: personal story i worked since two thousand nine in the battery industry And all Solid State was always five years out.

00:10:13: Since two thousand Nine It Was Five Years Out maybe three years, so we finally get closer.

00:10:25: Last but not least the Industry Accelerator Act I was in Brussels, Solar Power Europe event is creating a lot of interest discussion also.

00:10:38: some even say that it will slow down the installation of BESS because you're somehow Slow down.

00:10:43: I do think it's the right approach to bring value chain here, but it is a big game that the European Union is playing there.

00:10:53: or does your take?

00:10:54: Great!

00:10:55: Now like i say... It has just been fascinating seeing more of the battery industry and I have spent so much time in North America you know, working with a lot of our member companies as well.

00:11:09: So actually being in China and kind of seeing that has really opened my eyes.

00:11:15: I think the other thing is whilst kind of being out there or speaking trying to engage with some of the companies who were there There's definitely an appetite for partner work with The Western World.

00:11:28: so we just need to use that momentum.

00:11:33: Yeah, just work on the right collaborations.

00:11:37: So how does Walter Foundation help?

00:11:39: Yes so Walter Foundation has got a huge network of bachelor professionals over hundred thousand bachelor professionals and we have over two hundred fifty member companies up-and down kind of the battery value chain... ...so coming with us to talk about get your brand out there, amplification.

00:11:58: Engaging with the network being able to present a targeted audience and that kind of thought leadership

00:12:05: needs as well right?

00:12:06: Yeah absolutely!

00:12:07: Well data centres in AI is like huge topic for conversation.

00:12:11: we're working on committees and working groups producing valuable resources.

00:12:18: if you want be part of it then you've got to be part.

00:12:20: these associations

00:12:23: I see, yeah.

00:12:23: So um i worked on the battery report last year.

00:12:25: that is my connection and will be part of the workforce development committee looking forward for better news.

00:12:35: so we just published maybe also a highlight of The Last Quarter this beautiful atlas hour two thousand twenty six update And i recommend you all to download.

00:12:49: It's an insight to the European battery industry.

00:12:52: We are currently working on a North American version as well, To update our maps there.

00:12:56: Your maps were amazing.

00:12:58: Thank you!

00:12:59: A lot of work and we always forget one that... ...we get a lot of mails from companies like Hey You forgot us.

00:13:05: So do we in the battery board.

00:13:07: That is interesting but it still shows There was this shift between Gigafactories now And other components for other industries which I think it's natural and good.

00:13:21: And, uh... ...I think there is still a lot of opportunity in the battery industry for all of us!

00:13:27: So last quarter was intense.

00:13:34: building

00:13:35: you on this podcast here.

00:13:37: We had many retakes under the radar.

00:13:43: Great!

00:13:44: Should we come to our Secret guest.

00:13:47: Yes, absolutely!

00:13:48: Go ahead you've known him longer than me.

00:13:50: Yeah so many of you will know our today's guest.

00:13:54: I know him for many years and You might have seen in various executive roles In the battery industry.

00:14:01: He was working at Bosch at BCG At Farrows Europe And lately he is a CEO of PowerCo Managing plants in Valencia St Thomas inside Skitter Responsible to ramp up there.

00:14:13: Now has something else planned and he's going to tell us what it is.

00:14:17: So, very much looking forward for the podcast today!

00:14:22: We know since fifteen years we studied together in China.

00:14:25: so I'm very happy that you with us start this podcast here as our first official guest... ...so a warm welcome from Sebastian Wolf.

00:14:35: maybe introduce yourself to people who don't know him?

00:14:38: Yeah thank-you also.

00:14:39: First of all big thanks being part.

00:14:44: And yeah, it's interesting that in the end even after fifteen years our paths somehow grew together because their battery industry we always say is very small.

00:14:53: Yeah my name is Sebastian Wolff.

00:14:55: I studied mechanical engineering.

00:14:58: i'm a production engineer.

00:14:59: by training uh...I mean the better industry.

00:15:01: now since around twelve years so as Chris also already mentioned um..i've been different roles worked in Japan work with PHEV batteries, what's in the automotive space?

00:15:15: The past ten years.

00:15:16: And now we're starting a new journey also In an area of energy.

00:15:21: but I guess will talk more during your podcast.

00:15:24: Yeah So you came here to Talk about exactly that at the battery show on a big keynote.

00:15:30: Tell us What you are telling there through the audience which couldn't attend and stood cut.

00:15:35: yeah i'm very happy To do this.

00:15:37: You know energies at the core everything right.

00:15:39: energy is decor of the society is core economy.

00:15:44: So it's all about bringing energy, affordable to everyone.

00:15:48: we've seen just recently a huge pressure in terms of economic development especially central Europe once based on Ukrainian war where basically they increase of gas prices significantly impacted for example chemical industry and Germany And now just recently with Iran War We have seen significant increase also again in gas prices and also a pure availability of oil for jet fuel, for example.

00:16:13: So the availability of energy became the core of economic growth and also of economic stability.

00:16:20: while situation in Europe is more or less about economic growth In Africa this situations even worse because there we are talking up to ninety cents per kilowatt hour electricity price in country where either way availability money funds it's limited.

00:16:37: So what we have as a mission, and we basically founded the company called Wolf Energy which we announced today is that We have this mission to bring affordable sustainable and resilient energy for everyone.

00:16:50: And our target is to get to ten cents per kilowatt hour.

00:16:54: Well how do you get there?

00:16:56: Basically we are building an energy platform.

00:17:00: This energy platform is the interface of energy trading to what we consider tokenization of energy and also two multiple additional use cases.

00:17:11: And now you would say, well an energy platform with trading already exists right?

00:17:15: You're right.

00:17:15: there are many different applications but I think this energy ecosystem so far was never completed in terms of a vertical integration into the battery technology.

00:17:25: What is our background on?

00:17:26: that?

00:17:27: is not just buying some energy from a trading market, but actually we are going into vertical integration.

00:17:33: that means We control the supply chain.

00:17:35: That means we have our own powered land projects.

00:17:39: So it means we ever owned power.

00:17:41: virtual power plants as you say However were even going one step further namely?

00:17:45: We also had our own dedicated battery cell technology through a Technology partnership with Ferris's Energy which was able to announce today.

00:17:56: So we actually have a battery-style technology, which brings us twenty five thousand cycles.

00:18:01: Which brings up to fifty C discharge sea rate capability and an extremely good temperature performance from minus forty up to plus sixty degrees with more than eighty percent capacity retention.

00:18:13: so it significantly reduces the requirements towards thermal management on system level.

00:18:19: Basically this is what we consider vertical integration where they're very powerful and very economic basis for the storage technology, which is connected to our energy platform.

00:18:31: Which basically enables a completely new use case of using energy not only to trade but to tokenize it And they seem to enable many more use cases.

00:18:41: The good news is everybody will be able to use this because we are right now working on an app For everyone B to C also, which will launch next year.

00:18:49: You'll see there're many cool and interesting use cases.

00:18:55: Okay, that was a lot!

00:18:58: Just maybe to break it down little bit more.

00:19:01: So what you are doing as the first step?

00:19:04: Where do we start and where is our company based?

00:19:06: so how big your team is currently working on?

00:19:09: just explain us in your journey.

00:19:15: You said its very big but actually being able supply sustainable and affordable energy.

00:19:24: So you need a very powerful TV.

00:19:27: What we have done, first of all started to say what is the enabler towards getting sustainable energy affordable?

00:19:35: And ultimately if you look into Europe and Germany or Spain there's actually quite sufficient amount of renewable energy already in terms of generation.

00:19:44: so yes, generation needs capability, good partners which we have but key to make it affordable excessive energy when it's available into a very efficient battery technology.

00:19:57: This is why we started with searching for technology partners, so that's where we have the partnership with Ferrisis which we announced for the battery cell technology and we have another partnership with CEC for the Battery System Technology.

00:20:09: So basically this gives us their ability to control the battery technology at an affordable and very TCO optimized level.

00:20:18: That step number one.

00:20:19: The step number two is the European legislation also requires basically a localized and local controlled code on BMS and EMS.

00:20:28: That's why we're also announced today that we acquired their BMS part of PEM, Aachen.

00:20:33: so we have a German-made BMS And were also announced acquisition of VersaPOWL which means it's Norway or European EMS coded solution, so we have a completely compliant solution for our Powered Lands available now.

00:20:51: And I think this is cool and that's where we started!

00:20:54: Now the headquarters.

00:20:55: you asked what are we doing?

00:20:57: So it's basically setting up these bases installing and getting out first power land project to speed.

00:21:04: This was working on right now.

00:21:06: We headquarter in Frankfurt but also offices.

00:21:11: We have offices in Turkey, obviously the market is growing.

00:21:15: And we really want to use that ability right now... ...to develop these power lands across North America Europe and Turkey and Middle East and Africa.

00:21:24: That's kind of.

00:21:24: three regions were growing Right.

00:21:27: know our team has around thirty people.

00:21:30: by end of year would like to grow to about fifty but it not a lot.

00:21:33: number of people will have.

00:21:34: It´s about their expertise with us as well as partnerships.

00:21:38: I think some of them greatest most capable team in-house, but we also have some of the best partners.

00:21:45: We could have an industry which I think for us is a very good joint of forces.

00:21:51: so we not only battery focus with Ferrisis and CSC But we're also working with a listed company called Kwan Buu Which has an AI company A listed AI company which helps to basically develop this AI empowered energy platform.

00:22:06: Interesting, because you've been around the industry and... You know?

00:22:09: You mentioned Pharisis.

00:22:11: Well I have got your CV here!

00:22:13: You work with some of those businesses so really interesting to obviously hear that.

00:22:18: Tell us a bit more about having being in the industry In leading positions.

00:22:24: And why are you still in the battery industry?

00:22:31: There's challenges we face.

00:22:32: That is very good question.

00:22:35: First of all, I believe in sustainable energy and I think batteries are the key to sustainable energy.

00:22:41: It's a key to enable also resilient energy supply.

00:22:45: so that is why for me my heart beats into the battery industry because it's enabling my vision of sustainability right?

00:22:52: That's number one!

00:22:53: I think that's why we're all in there isn't it Chris included?

00:22:57: And

00:22:57: its actually very exciting to work on this industry Because you see how it's evolving but you learn from mistakes.

00:23:04: We need to be honest and transparent with each other.

00:23:07: To know how.

00:23:07: an experience is not in Europe, we have a lot of know-how on how to do R&D in Europe but all the know-hours and experiences on how scale it or bring into cost point was done in Asia especially China.

00:23:20: I think this what you need to acknowledge And i always talk my colleagues that are quite famous being transforming from teacher becoming student as Europe because we needed learn And I think this is something which i tried to promote also in my organizations, because I think that's the thing we need to acknowledge.

00:23:42: Also what I've seen all of the companies outside Asia or Europe and North America who acknowledged it were successful at the end but they thought hey!

00:23:53: We can do much better than those guys with experience.

00:23:56: Yeah, well I've

00:23:59: recently come back from CIBF and it's just eye-opening.

00:24:03: You know the level of technology in pace And It's it's Just fascinating and i think being there and seeing is just another story.

00:24:13: Absolutely yeah really impressive.

00:24:17: So but?

00:24:20: I'm still not hundred percent sure what wolf was doing.

00:24:22: so I guess The people will ask are you producing sales here in Europe?

00:24:27: Do you plan to produce best systems?

00:24:31: What is happening as a footprint here in Europe, will bring manufacturing or more about the power lines and EMS system that keeps control of energy itself.

00:24:42: Or are also looking at manufacturing?

00:24:45: Well first it's all about making energy affordable And making sustainable energy affordable.

00:24:51: So we're bringing to Europe our energy platform.

00:24:54: The energy platform includes battery solution.

00:24:57: To be very transparent, I think right now the supply chain probably cannot be localized in Europe and at a affordable price level.

00:25:05: So for the beginning we probably won't localize in Europe too much For sure.

00:25:10: when you look into container localization that's something which were looking to also localize.

00:25:15: but battery cell localization especially this ESS applications Which have to cost competitive is not only building a factory it's also building a supply chain for the raw materials, for components of the battery which probably doesn't exist at a cost-competitive level.

00:25:30: So really in the beginning it's more about controlling the technology, controlling the IP, controlling product and bringing there because I think utilizing supply chain with our partners will enable us to bring this sustainable technology with European IP without our know how end Chinese supply chains so best off two worlds into Europe.

00:25:53: Now for sure you asked what are we so?

00:25:56: We're basing an energy solution provider now.

00:25:59: We have the IP So we develop and be also co-produced at our partner sites.

00:26:04: Okay, basically were running the sides together with them Our COO.

00:26:08: it will also run the factories on site with him And that's a support to produce.

00:26:14: Now, what I don't want to exclude that for sure we also will have the localize because some applications of ESS also require local content and larger local content.

00:26:23: So We do consider into localization but we need you be very honest.

00:26:27: Localization only makes sense at a point when You haven understood The business case really works out And it's proven so far as the localization Of system would probably come first in the next one or two years of the battery cell, I would say more towards end-of-the decade and really once a business case has proven.

00:26:46: Once we have a supply chain which is secured And also at Business which actually proves that it requires localization to this extent

00:26:56: Who you be your customers in that business case?

00:27:00: So for our battery.

00:27:02: so basically three key products.

00:27:05: One product, obviously is the energy solution.

00:27:07: So we're selling this product as an energy solution meaning our energy technology stack how do you call it which includes our energy storage or energy management?

00:27:17: Our energy distribution and for sure also if needed to energy generation part so we can sell that.

00:27:22: there's a CAPEX project does a turnkey solution tool energy providers For example who are intending to install this so We can deliver.

00:27:31: The second part is that basically we also have our own power land projects, where you do your own funds and basically install it as a virtual power plant.

00:27:39: And the third one kind of some mixture.

00:27:40: both were.

00:27:41: we can operate the powered lands with our system to co-operate or co finance these products for customers across Europe and also across North America.

00:27:52: Have

00:27:54: you got your eyes on any other partners, potential partners to work with?

00:27:58: Sure.

00:27:58: We're already working and we are in good talks with many companies where actually I would have the first customers.

00:28:04: Okay So we do have a customer for example in UK.

00:28:07: All right.

00:28:08: We talk into customers.

00:28:10: In Turkey were talking about customers across Central Europe.

00:28:15: The market is there And one thing that's been seen in our markets Many energy companies They tried to do also this energy trading platform, they have quite a good know-how there actually needed say.

00:28:27: But really what's lacking is the disverting integration into understanding.

00:28:30: where can I get the last pieces of cent per kilowatt hour out in TCO when are really optimized for battery technology through the last digit?

00:28:39: And that's I think we're our turnkey solution.

00:28:42: it's really an unic selling point on market.

00:28:45: And when we were kind of offline preparing for this meeting, you had some good examples where your inspiration came from.

00:28:51: Can you share a bit more about that?

00:28:54: Yeah sure I mean...I was in there many meetings Where We saw battery suppliers or battery sourcing In these energy companies.

00:29:11: Well basically..we have quite junior people sitting across companies such as CATL, right?

00:29:17: And then in the end I asked them well why does a battery price they're paying for and what is their performance?

00:29:21: again.

00:29:22: Basically it taught me we are getting LFP batteries for ESS applications at seven thousand cycles so that significantly impacts our TCO compared to our twenty five thousand cycles.

00:29:33: So you see the TCO really in terms of Euro per kilowatt hour stored around trip efficiency is much, much higher than if you would use that technology.

00:29:43: So there's a lot of potential in the storage and... A lot of potentially in their battery storage applications In terms of commercial optimization.

00:29:52: And this really inspired me because I've seen it many times Because they have a lot push into market towards going to Europe For sure people want to use or especially suppliers from Asia wants to use existing capacities bring them over.

00:30:08: But then what leads to, and I think this is something which is interesting in countries where arbitration so meaning usage of battery storage to compensate for the fluctuation or for the volatility of energy generations were renewables.

00:30:24: We see that actually enterprises go up right?

00:30:27: And this is mostly because the ESS systems are end-to-end so costly to operate.

00:30:35: optimized system performance that actually becomes more expensive now.

00:30:40: The more we get into renewables and we see it in southern Europe, suddenly the arbitrage costs become higher and higher And I think this is something where we see a business case for us.

00:30:51: Where we end?

00:30:51: This our mission to go on Saturday at the beginning To go down to this ten cents per kilowatt hour.

00:30:56: We have good news as well because we have a business-case developed with also a target roadmap as a baseline and I think this is where we want to go together.

00:31:07: Fun fact, i talked with a very big energy supplier from Southern Europe.

00:31:10: he said that they have accepted the same target as you.

00:31:14: so it's really what we see.

00:31:15: industry has to go through

00:31:19: And I think it's not just the industry, is like the general public kind of getting them on board and obviously they're going to jump at lower costs of energy up there.

00:31:28: And that can tell you one thing in China?

00:31:30: You know i'm in china quite often because we have these partnerships and also Just Because Of The Industry.

00:31:36: Still If You Ask The Chinese Why Don't You Buy A Combustion Car?

00:31:40: Why Do buy An Electric Car?

00:31:41: Says I would be Stupid To Buy a Combustions Car Because Just By TCO Cost It'S half, less than half to operate the EV because they pay six to seven cents per kilowatt hour of operating costs.

00:31:54: Now if you drive an EV in Europe and you're lucky seventy maybe sixty cent per kilowatts on a fast charger that's completely different story!

00:32:03: If we would now go down even twenty cents per kWh let us not talk about ten but even twenty then business case will be completely changed.

00:32:11: people wouldn't say do I need think about right or left?

00:32:14: They said it is per definition a business case, right?

00:32:17: And I think this is where we as Europe have to go too because energy it's not only the cost for driving my car.

00:32:24: Energy has the costs of transporting goods and transporting goods means its basically everywhere in everything.

00:32:31: um...and i think cost competitiveness and energy enables also economic growth.

00:32:37: again an economic costs competitiveness.

00:32:42: That's why it is so important, and that's our mission to get there.

00:32:46: And I think this technology stack we developed has the potential... ...to actually enable at least part of it in

00:32:53: Europe.".

00:32:54: So you talked about before doing it also quickly in Europe?

00:33:00: Not just doing here but also close-to Chinese speed let us say!

00:33:08: I was on the Solar Power Europe event in Brussels three or four weeks ago.

00:33:13: One big topic.

00:33:13: there was always the permitting, the regulation.

00:33:17: All of this which just slows down projects significantly or even stops them before they pick up.

00:33:24: how do you think that can be solved?

00:33:26: Or what needs to happen more on a macro scale than it could work?

00:33:33: I think... There's some misconception because Europe can also be fast and I've seen states even in Germany, which can excel.

00:33:42: Which can be very very fast.

00:33:44: if i think there's a right push And the right support?

00:33:46: The right communication with their local authorities you Can actually execute quite fast in germany.

00:33:52: so it's all about preparation and It's all About having A good and Very frequent exchange With regulators and maybe Also about pragmatism.

00:34:01: i think In germany we often try to plan everything out until the last detail And I think we need to be more pragmatic.

00:34:09: and then even Germany has proven in the past that we are able to be fast.

00:34:14: We also have a technical capability, not only in Germany but all over Europe can be fast.

00:34:20: so Chinese speed is not because they're cutting corners and Chinese speed it's not because there were less regulations.

00:34:26: In fact their environmental regulation are nearly the same or sometimes more than what you see here.

00:34:34: But it's about pragmatism and good collaboration with the local authorities.

00:34:39: So, that is not which regulations we have but having a right mindset to get them done.

00:34:46: I think this is my key learning out of last twelve years being in the battery industry.

00:34:52: so you don't see as bad sometimes here?

00:34:55: No, for sure there are regular regulations.

00:35:02: How can you communicate that with the local authorities?

00:35:06: and also selecting the right neighborhood?

00:35:08: Because obviously, especially in Germany for example.

00:35:11: You have this Emissionschütz Gazette.

00:35:15: so basically how much emission do we have surrounding areas?

00:35:20: depending on which surrounding area you have more or less requirements.

00:35:23: So I think it's about selecting a right size Selecting the right partner And then being pragmatic an execution while still being compliant with the regulations.

00:35:33: And what would be the right neighborhood for producing

00:35:36: assets?

00:35:37: Assets, for example... For this power land project.

00:35:41: The right neighborhood is probably in areas where not so many population are around it Usually I guess typically next to major highways because they either way have quite a lot of traffic and noise and i think that's typically further away from next cities.

00:35:59: So there will something weird easier to get.

00:36:02: But also very nice, you know I had it as Ferris' times and i think this is what's communicated...I worked with the city in Bitterfeld-Wolfen.

00:36:11: they're very experienced in handling these because we have a chemical park.

00:36:14: there has been long tradition on them..these kind of cities are open for collaboration.

00:36:22: In my last projects in Volkswagen and Seitz-Gitter, we had a very good collaboration with local authorities.

00:36:27: So it's always about building trust... ...and building a good relationship with the authorities.

00:36:32: Bringing them on board as well right?

00:36:33: Yes!

00:36:34: Yeah I was gonna say like so you need to make friends of them basically that those are there.

00:36:39: You need to find a working level.

00:36:40: yeah Right?

00:36:42: Any other ways any other kind of associations or collaborations how do you know find the right people?

00:36:49: just speak

00:36:50: to?

00:36:51: Well, obviously you need to.

00:36:54: it does make sense.

00:36:55: To talk about regulations with authorities across Europe because even that's again sorry to go back but even in Germany a cell factor which we built and Miss Central Germany You cannot just copy and paste an old Germany Because I have different regulations.

00:37:11: yeah And i think talking about is standard for, I mean not maybe cell factories because that's very special in terms of chemical field but for this powered lens getting a European standard what is required to install them?

00:37:25: This is i think what we need to do and this is where would probably ask.

00:37:29: And this is why we together need to push for a european standard on installations Because i think this will just A support speed in the projects and B. it will also help standardize degrade across Europe which makes exactly this transfer of sustainable energy, which is produced for sure more in the south part of Europe than also being transferred through a unified instead-of-us grid to central Europe and just make it easier to grow all these storage capability that's needed.

00:38:03: So as we both lived in China I'm a bit curious.

00:38:06: so for me especially over last years its always...I don't really understand why are building such big wall between our two regions, I would say.

00:38:19: We used to be very good partners... ...I loved the time in China and still have many friends there.

00:38:25: Do you think it's reasonable at least for critical infrastructure or defence?

00:38:31: And so on only European solutions?

00:38:35: Or do also you mentioned a teacher-student example which i really like?

00:38:41: So how do we get there?

00:38:43: I mean, they aren't much faster.

00:38:44: They are much more advanced in battery.

00:38:47: so We need to be a student for at least awhile.

00:38:50: and on the same side you want independent or atleast defense and critical infrastructure.

00:38:57: What is your take of it being so close to each other?

00:39:01: Yeah especially The western world.

00:39:03: yes For sure Not just Europe but also North America.

00:39:07: You know

00:39:08: i'm not great fan-off.

00:39:10: Separate them between and building this wall.

00:39:12: Yeah, building this Chinese wall.

00:39:15: So I'm not a great fan on contrasts.

00:39:17: i say we need to be partners We need to work as one team because obviously you know if we want to work is or If we want To get through the price point of sustainable energy Of where China is.

00:39:31: it does not work alone Which just don't have the resources?

00:39:35: We don't Have to supply chain And if they isolate us too much We will not get to a price point where sustainable energy will become and we'll stay affordable.

00:39:46: And I think this is the tradeoff you have to do, and I think we as Wolf Energy... ...we've done exactly that!

00:39:52: We said let's partner with the best.

00:39:54: Let's take the technology Take a partnership where we have existing capacities But then just say don't play an integrator but basically own the IP controlling the system because money, revenue and they know how it doesn't lay in production only.

00:40:15: It lays into understanding of ecosystem.

00:40:18: And I think if you look back at which companies have been successful in last year's Apple or Tesla They've been succesfull becuase their seen the Ecosystem.

00:40:28: They didn't say i need to make a car In this country Because only there can isolate myself But i said i need understand that ecosystem And this is where our approach has so much strong focus on building the ecosystem.

00:40:43: Yes, the ecosystem can be localized – it has to be localized for data protection reasons–to be compliant but completely neglecting the efficiencies of supply chains which were built up and experiences in industrialization that are available.

00:41:02: This would be foolish not to utilize them because they basically put Europe in a ten to fifteen years disadvantage, because China just built up the supply chains.

00:41:14: So I think rather than saying east versus west... ...I think that our task is how can we both work together on growing the market together?

00:41:24: In an eye-level approach and this is something where i stand behind it And I fully agree with Chris Because Chinese and Germans We CAN work together.

00:41:35: It's all about building trust, it's all working on eye level and one team.

00:41:39: And I think this is when you can just generate a win-win for everyone!

00:41:44: You also mentioned the defense application critical infrastructure.

00:41:48: that's controlling the system... ...it doesn't make any difference whether the cell raw material was made in Germany Africa or China but does make a different system.

00:42:02: If we control the system at all, in the code of this system have been programmed where you know what's going on or in China and America.

00:42:11: I think there is a question about where it's the brain?

00:42:15: And that's exactly our approach.

00:42:17: Yeah i was just gonna jump into the US.

00:42:20: You're building your footprint There.

00:42:24: Is that more challenging or are they nuances with both?

00:42:31: Yes, it's more restrictive.

00:42:32: This is true but also interesting to see that despite they say we don't want to have Chinese technology there are still quite significant growth in the last months of China's imports and Chinese companies going into the US.

00:42:48: so actually their just open because in the end its all about cost right?

00:42:52: They realize if I just localize for sake of localization suddenly the price is doubling And I think this is something they just realized.

00:43:01: So it's all about achieving a cost target and yes, It makes sense to localize in the U S as well.

00:43:08: but again you need To have a proven and bullet-proven business case first and i think This Is why The strategy of First using and building up A product showcasing that the Product In the use case Of it works and then seeing Where does the localization?

00:43:23: Maybe also a partial localization with a clever routing of supply chain make sense to still have a viable business case.

00:43:30: And I think many companies, and we don't need to talk about names here... ...have proven that localization just because you say we are localized is not the business case….

00:43:40: …and doesn't justify their investments.

00:43:43: so i think this is the difference we want to have!

00:43:45: Also our advantages were using existing infrastructure in supply chains with European system structure.

00:43:54: This makes us able to actually already deliver revenue and get into business, get into installations very fast.

00:44:02: And this market is about speed right?

00:44:03: I think that's something which we put on top of our origin.

00:44:08: Yeah definitely about speed now!

00:44:13: So but you mentioned the ecosystem.

00:44:14: i guess it's probably interesting for all people out there who want a partner with you are open for other partners or have your ecosystem ready what kind of partners you are looking at.

00:44:25: So we're

00:44:26: working with it, as I said our partner for the ecosystem platform is Quant Group which basically is a listed AI company.

00:44:33: so they are building the platform now.

00:44:35: What we open and what were really happy to do was?

00:44:37: We've been using cases on top.

00:44:39: this platform would be more than excited to talk to companies who interested maybe bring their business into that platform in today's ecosystem You can imagine just like an epic app store.

00:44:50: So we want to install energy apps on our platform, and this is ultimately what we're going do.

00:44:56: More than happy welcome!

00:44:58: Are you just opening the digital platform or also like for example the battery itself that some SOH prediction?

00:45:06: We

00:45:07: can talk about it as part of... As I said there are four technology stacks which are behind all platforms.

00:45:13: so basically if i have a platform in the middle Below is basically our technology stack, so this where the hardware sits.

00:45:20: And on top are other use cases which then it's kind of a virtual app store if you want.

00:45:25: So we're more than happy to also talk about these other applications for our tech stacks.

00:45:29: and well We could actually get into discussions and see what makes sense to collaborate or not.

00:45:35: Interesting?

00:45:35: It all sounds very positive isn't it?

00:45:38: You know there's demand that energy systems are transforming and The ecosystem needs to mature.

00:45:48: So things that I'm thinking about or talent, you know what the future of talent look like within our industry?

00:45:55: You know there's skills that we're lacking in.

00:45:57: and where does that come from?

00:45:58: because We were talking about no faults.

00:46:01: they had a lot of talents And They didn't make it.

00:46:06: so i'm interested To kind Of understand What That Looks Like From The Talent Standcoin.

00:46:13: So basically there are three layers.

00:46:16: One is the app layer, second one is energy platform layer and third one is vertical integrated textic layer.

00:46:24: so all of these different requirements nowadays while top layers are more into software part in really understanding an ecosystem which it's also a new focus.

00:46:34: well bottom line to be focused on getting TCO optimized entire system base review.

00:46:42: And I think this is where, and i'm really grateful for the discussion today.

00:46:47: Organizations like Volta Foundation or even Battery News can be very helpful because we need to work together now.

00:46:56: exactly shape these views.

00:46:58: So fine!

00:46:59: This is what Europe is very excelling in.

00:47:01: We're good at segmenting our industry well into small pieces but it's a way of being successful is by merging these together and really think in the entire system view.

00:47:14: And I think this was where probably we jointly need to form an understanding that basically now it's not only about battery cells, It's not even about battery systems No!

00:47:24: Its' about TCO optimized energy solutions right?

00:47:29: This is what you basically needed to develop our energy or industry towards.

00:47:36: Yeah, no couldn't agree more.

00:47:38: I think there's so much focus for us specifically on like workforce development and You know what that looks like?

00:47:45: And bringing the old together.

00:47:46: So yeah watch this space lots more to come in a new.

00:47:48: you're working on things as well

00:47:50: work together guess.

00:47:53: So just closing with these optimism as your as you mentioned.

00:47:56: yes Well i think for me it's fascinating looking at you In the positions.

00:48:04: you have been sorry for the French shit happening and You you still didn't leave the battery industry.

00:48:13: You're still now even investing your own money Even your name on the company, you bring people together who believe in that put money on a table as well create this ecosystem.

00:48:24: so I think For me it shows these kind of very positive mindset which i think we can just all learn And take an example from.

00:48:36: So just I'm really fascinated by it.

00:48:40: And so my question would be, how can we all get that optimism?

00:48:45: What makes you still believe in what?

00:48:48: why do think You Can Do It?

00:48:50: Because it's proven That It Works.

00:48:53: i Think If I you know You Mentioned We Studied In China.

00:48:55: if Go To China You See It Works.

00:48:57: and its Amazing to see What Was Able To Be Achieved In The Renewable Energy Space In the Past Ten Years.

00:49:05: and there's so much potential for Europe.

00:49:08: You know, people are open to it.

00:49:11: People are open for electrification.

00:49:13: Many people start considering it but its all about empowering our competitiveness And this all depends on energy.

00:49:22: The good news is we can do It!

00:49:25: The Good News Is There IS A BUSINESS CASE LEADING US TO COST COMPETITIVE ENERGY PRICES.

00:49:30: We just need to work together To get it done.

00:49:34: We need to get away of the thinking that we're all scared of China, but we need work together as one team.

00:49:40: And I think this is very important.

00:49:43: Agreed?

00:49:44: Agreed!

00:49:47: So in our podcast look at the past ninety days last quarter and you also want take a look ahead on what's your sense for the next three months.

00:50:01: What will it bring into the battery industry what people should be considering about?

00:50:08: Well, maybe three months is a bit short.

00:50:10: Maybe you should talk about the next six month.

00:50:13: so it happens in the next... What's happened until end of year and I think

00:50:18: can make an exception for you!

00:50:21: Yeah just today.

00:50:24: So i think we will see a race about battery technologies.

00:50:30: We've seen that even CITL has announced they are now shifting towards more ESS.

00:50:35: So, we will see a race in new technologies coming up.

00:50:39: In user chemistries and in you types of batteries which build an abler completely different level Of energy storage cost.

00:50:51: And important is that we stay on top of it.

00:50:54: This our vision Our task to basically have strong partners Which help us be fast as talked about Staying atop the technology trends bringing them to Europe, enabling a business case paying into the ecosystem.

00:51:10: Because one thing is clear this ecosystem approach yes it's new and unique point in europe maybe also north america but its nothing new.

00:51:20: on china they're working already now.

00:51:23: so i think question is can we be quick enough?

00:51:32: Our friends or companies, competitors from Asia are coming over.

00:51:36: And this is our task also for the next six months to stay up-to-speed and be even faster.

00:51:41: get the right speed support buildup of first projects prove that all technology can get into this level.

00:51:50: So next six month will be extremely interesting.

00:51:53: what I'm more really excited about launch out first app which actually everybody of you every body of us download and then actually it can take part in energy trading through tokenized energy.

00:52:05: And I'm really excited for next year when we can launch the app formally, so i think this from my point of view is a really exciting six months.

00:52:14: won't be easy but a lot of excitement ahead of us!

00:52:22: Breaking it down still to the next ninety days.

00:52:25: sorry just three quick questions yeah?

00:52:27: So one prediction... One event you shouldn't miss And the last your personal highlight, you're really looking forward.

00:52:34: I start.

00:52:34: so we will go round and be close with you Sebastian Sofamy.

00:52:38: Um i think there Will Be more nice announcements like Here With Wolf energy today but also Looking Forward for a lot of IPOs in The Energy Sector.

00:52:50: so There's Investment Happening Again Maybe Not Really In The Cell Production Big Dream Gigafactories.

00:52:56: But Another Use Cases Business Cases Which Develop here The event, there are so many I'm attending.

00:53:04: The closest one will be the recycling expo in Frankfurt and three weeks... ...and two weeks!

00:53:09: And for me this is also about closing the circle again not just bringing batteries to market but thinking about sustainability of it.

00:53:18: what do after last button at least?

00:53:20: i'll be in Zambia & Kenya in September teaching about batteries.

00:53:25: they're educating local workforce because also they see the huge potential in batteries and all want to learn, get behind it develop their own business cases.

00:53:37: So I'm really looking forward for those two trainings in Kenya and Zambia.

00:53:41: Yeah very similar.

00:53:42: so from predictions there's going be a lot more best companies lots of start-ups we're seeing I saw at CIBF you know lots Indian companies coming over looking for sales that are working on hacks.

00:53:58: I think that's something we're going to see a lot more of.

00:54:02: and the next event, probably the highlight because it was always a highlight for me.

00:54:06: but The Women in Bacteria Conference is in July, that's a Volta Foundation conference And i'm going to be moderating a panel session on entrepreneurship.

00:54:18: so very much looking forward about at the end.

00:54:20: Maybe

00:54:22: for all who don't know men are also allowed.

00:54:24: Yes,

00:54:24: yes allies and yeah of course thanks.

00:54:28: Yeah maybe my prediction My prediction I think i would share what I talked about Seattle in terms of said chemistry One thing which probably nobody has on the radar The next big market for ESS is Africa.

00:54:40: So going to Kenya as a right thing.

00:54:43: Many people Don't...I'm completely underestimate What's happening in Africa Right now.

00:54:49: There's huge activity Going On which I think for us in Europe and the western world is not really transparent, but it's something to look at.

00:54:58: So we are also quite active in that field already looking into this.

00:55:05: Well next events for Interzula obviously one of key events coming up... But sure there more!

00:55:13: We as a platform company don't only focus on battery & energy storage, we're more into AI space too.

00:55:22: So I think there's a lot of activities.

00:55:24: I've just been to Beyond last week on Friday in Macau, which was really an interesting event as well.

00:55:32: so it is all about getting AI combined with these business models would be the key.

00:55:40: For me this outlook for next ninety days...

00:55:44: Watch your space!

00:55:47: Great, well I think that kind of wraps things up a little bit.

00:55:51: So we will be... you'll be there!

00:55:54: The battery show in Detroit's where We Will Be hosting our next second podcast.

00:56:02: but yeah just thank you so much for your time today and i think Wrap things up.

00:56:10: Yeah,

00:56:10: so I just wanted to talk to you guys.

00:56:13: yeah So it was our first episode?

00:56:15: I hope you liked it.

00:56:16: Let us know what we can do better.

00:56:18: let us know who should invite for the next top speaker here in Detroit on a next battery show if You've seen us here and Stuttgart or your listening To Us On Your Commute Or Working In A Gigafactory Even With Your E-Ports!

00:56:36: We are super thankful For Joining In.

00:56:39: Of course, follow Battery News.

00:56:41: Become a member at Volta Foundation join their events share this podcast and connect with us on LinkedIn.

00:56:48: And yeah we're just gonna say that We know the next nine days will matter.

00:56:51: so let's make it count.

00:56:54: Thank you very much.