Episode #2 Q3 - Materials in the race | Guests Sophie & Steen from CarbonX

00:00:00: Can I ask a rather provocative question?

00:00:03: Looking just at what is happening in China, the scale and speed.

00:00:06: So are you not a little bit too late to the party... ...and maybe also too small for change something?

00:00:12: Are we too small?

00:00:13: No definitely NOT too small!

00:00:15: Because we partner with these manum-soaked carbon axes much bigger than their comforts.

00:00:21: Also

00:00:22: you cannot build a new data center without a battery.

00:00:25: It used be the backup but now it's Also necessary to even get a grid connection.

00:00:30: So, of course you create the big dependency and I think the Department of War here understood that... ...and declared the graphite as critical material.

00:00:42: And one fact i was really surprised about

00:00:44: they

00:00:46: leasing out land on military bases To produce graphite there

00:00:51: power.

00:00:52: So our material has all the features needed to replace graphite.

00:00:57: The benefit of Carbon X is

00:01:00: here.

00:01:00: in the US we have a nine-to-nine point nine percent.

00:01:02: so yeah, We think that next

00:01:04: nice day will matter.

00:01:06: let's make it count!

00:01:27: Okay hello To you guys.

00:01:30: welcome from Detroit the battery show Here In the U.S.

00:01:36: very much looking forward for the podcast today and discussing what happened in last quarter And also

00:01:41: what we should look towards for the next ninety days.

00:01:45: And I think they have two very interesting guests also, which will cover a topic in which the battery industry is looking at right now?

00:01:57: Yeah

00:01:58: it's probably something that isn't focused on enough.

00:02:01: It's big part of the sell.

00:02:05: Yes, it is actually the

00:02:08: heaviest.

00:02:10: But before doing that let's look a little bit at what Lighter had.

00:02:15: and we are here in Detroit where the motor and cars were brought to scale and Ford created massive production for vehicles.

00:02:27: I learned an interesting fact his wife was driving electric already In the twentieth century, they produced electric cars and Clauer Ford was driving electric for several years.

00:02:38: So I don't know what went wrong but it's good that we are back here at this stage in putting electric vehicles again decades later on the road.

00:02:50: so just whoever tunes a new background to both of us.

00:02:58: I think we met on so many conferences before.

00:03:00: We have, yes... Best places to network!

00:03:03: Best places for us all.

00:03:04: So we've been to them all?

00:03:05: Love a lot and meet nice people.

00:03:07: And in my opinion the best conversations happen In The Isle, in the discussions, in evening...

00:03:14: At the socials.

00:03:15: Yes not at stage.

00:03:17: It's also interesting to watch presentations but i come here Not for the presentations, but this networking and discussions in between the presentation.

00:03:25: You can watch it online Yes So that was our motivation to make a podcast between Volta foundation Battery news.

00:03:34: yeah And we wanted to do at each quarter.

00:03:38: But I think you're increasing the speed of it.

00:03:40: yes We've Yeah with what kind on track?

00:03:45: I Think

00:03:46: for the year I think we could go more often

00:03:50: than the project.

00:03:50: We

00:03:50: probably would, yes

00:03:52: so last

00:03:53: especially with a speed of like the industry as well you

00:03:56: know.

00:03:56: yeah

00:03:57: otherwise it's too many topics to cover in one episode.

00:04:05: um So i think kind of the main thing to get across is were here to discuss topics that are important for the industry but have that real focus on how we can collaborate, share realism as well from the industry and just optimism.

00:04:26: I think it's really important that we're optimistic and excited about what this future looks like And us coming together to share is very important.

00:04:35: Yeah there many players around the globe sharing that working on it in small topics and big topics, start up large companies.

00:04:46: But

00:04:47: I think a lot happened here.

00:04:48: so i'm in the battery industry since two thousand nine now all my career And I was surprised last quarter yeah So there were topics which...I didn't expect.

00:05:00: one interesting fact for example that only twenty-two percent of the batteries in China produced In The Last Quarter.

00:05:08: We're actually going into local EVs.

00:05:12: The others were exported or mainly also put in other applications.

00:05:16: That makes sense especially with data centers Being a hot topic, specially here In the US and I think Europe to be fair.

00:05:24: You know that was at the sale event in Sweden.

00:05:27: we would talk about data centers as you Know.

00:05:29: what

00:05:31: events

00:05:31: have he been?

00:05:33: So quite few in the last A couple of weeks even, so I was in fast markets.

00:05:38: In Budapest went to the CATL site which was vast and incredible to see.

00:05:44: unfortunately it wasn't online yet but got that opportunity to visit there.

00:05:50: We had a member event at Consol in Cambridge And then beat up some events in Sweden got the opportunity to go and see the lightened labs as well.

00:06:02: All the cyclers that they have there...

00:06:05: You were busy!

00:06:06: I've been busy, how about you?

00:06:07: I was also busy although on different events.

00:06:10: so i was in a solar power Europe event in Brussels focusing on energy storage And then I was travelling mostly Africa at several projects.

00:06:20: Also the energy transition is very visible.

00:06:24: There's lot happening in EV space but also on the energy side.

00:06:27: I think we're both very busy, but now i'm happy to also reconnect and be on the same event again.

00:06:37: Hopefully you had some down time as well in...

00:06:39: I did travel in Kenya so it was an amazing country at a time!

00:06:47: Very nice hope you too?

00:06:49: You looked relaxed last time I met you.

00:06:52: Yeah..I've

00:06:53: had some good time off aswell.

00:06:57: Another thing which surprised me, I work in batteries since long time and the solid state was always five years out.

00:07:06: Since i started it's five years till its commercialized

00:07:10: And

00:07:10: now we see production moving from lab to production lines.

00:07:15: This is very interesting.

00:07:17: It can change the whole industry automatically.

00:07:20: So with state batteries becoming a reality and in scale both in Asia, but also here in the US.

00:07:28: So who's going to win that race?

00:07:32: Of course China is already creating facts so they have a new regulation and all sorts of state batteries in their vehicle market put into action.

00:07:44: They really focus on this topic.

00:07:47: That was surprising for me because I never thought it would happen.

00:07:57: I think a lot of people don't know whether it's going to happen.

00:08:01: Yes, and everyone is talking about it but no one really believes in it fully.

00:08:08: So what was surprising for you?

00:08:11: Yeah

00:08:12: well like i said been travelling quite a bit... ...I got the opportunity just go see Altress aswell in Stockholm And that was really insightful much further forward than I expected, working with some great partners.

00:08:28: So even on the sodium ion side because there's real opportunity to progress.

00:08:35: and what do you learn here?

00:08:37: Oh good question!

00:08:38: It has been fantastic.

00:08:40: as usual i love coming this show As you said, bumping into people that have not seen since maybe the last one.

00:08:49: But also just hearing about companies' progress and yeah... an announcement I guess from one of our member companies.

00:08:59: so Echion actually won Battery Pack Innovation Of The Year at the show awards alongside their partners PLS, Switch Technologies.

00:09:12: They were part of the AusTrade delegation and we had a lovely evening with them last night in the Australian delegation

00:09:23: Speaking about Australia, they have a kangaroo in front of their booth.

00:09:28: Did you see that?

00:09:28: They do!

00:09:29: Someone stole it yesterday and I knew who it was.

00:09:33: It was interesting.

00:09:34: so there were running And getting back here.

00:09:38: So very interesting story...I also had picture with them But..

00:09:43: I didn't get pictures.

00:09:44: We currently do lot's training in Australia.

00:09:47: So far its remote.

00:09:49: i hope we can bring our team over and do more tranks.

00:09:52: Australia is doing very well what the energy transition, clean energy accounts are.

00:10:01: so I think they're ahead of us in clean energy at least in several fields.

00:10:06: They have solar and battery storage for home?

00:10:10: Yes also the minerals that we have.

00:10:13: there's an interesting market which isn't really in focus.

00:10:17: it's great to see them here.

00:10:21: Australia?

00:10:23: No, not about to show Australia.

00:10:24: I've heard of other conferences.

00:10:26: maybe that's on the list To do a podcast out in the future!

00:10:30: I love that.

00:10:33: Let's do it and yeah.

00:10:34: so for me here It was surprising.

00:10:37: first of all its still a bit smaller than last year Yet it feels more packed.

00:10:43: Plus i think there

00:10:46: is A little bit more

00:10:47: optimism...I wouldn't say it's euphoric Everyone's super happy, but at least

00:10:53: focused I'd say.

00:10:55: Focus

00:10:55: is a good word.

00:10:56: Yeah

00:10:59: The direction is more here.

00:11:00: It is

00:11:01: yeah.

00:11:01: Of course we have the midterms coming up in US.

00:11:04: that might change again something.

00:11:06: Let's hope not.

00:11:07: let's hope it's positive.

00:11:09: and then a positive reaction.

00:11:11: Yes Atleast for the battery sector.

00:11:13: Sure

00:11:14: We continue with that And especially in the

00:11:16: U.S.,

00:11:17: you mentioned data centers I think, yesterday there was an interesting discussion with a guy from NVIDIA.

00:11:27: So they make ships but it's not about the ship anymore.

00:11:32: you cannot build new data center without battery.

00:11:36: It used to be backup and now its also necessary.

00:11:39: even get grid connection You need to bring batteries otherwise your will not connected because energy amount is just crazy like doubled.

00:11:49: And I think this year, twenty four gigawatts installed just for data centers.

00:11:54: It's it's just massive

00:11:55: and

00:11:56: you need to have the batteries so its... Batteries

00:11:58: matter!

00:11:58: Battery matters?

00:12:00: They do

00:12:01: they too and that is what i wanted say.

00:12:03: yeah So Its not about ships anymore.

00:12:06: without a battery there are no datacenters.

00:12:09: and I like kind of thinking That shows importance in industry Although here alot production I think there is a relevance to it.

00:12:23: The second, I mean defence here of course... ...is the topic.

00:12:29: and the defence industry is massive in the

00:12:31: U.S.,

00:12:32: Canada as well but also Europe.

00:12:35: And here the dependencies of foreign countries are still very high especially for major.

00:12:43: looking at specific materials For example, the graphite is predominantly produced China in ninety five, ninety seven percent.

00:12:53: So of course you create a big dependency and I think the Department of War here understood that and declared the graphite as critical material.

00:13:06: And one fact i was really surprised about

00:13:09: they

00:13:10: leasing out land on their military bases to produce graphite there.

00:13:16: It's like they treat it like an ammunition basically.

00:13:18: Yeah, as critical as a

00:13:21: diesel.

00:13:23: So and this will be

00:13:27: one driving factor I think worldwide that to de-risk the supply chains And become more independent as a region.

00:13:36: we see the same in Europe with EIA Driving for local production then also selecting critical minerals and opening up production raw material but also for precursors and everything, creating a circular economy ultimately to keep the materials

00:13:52: in the loop.

00:13:54: So this is I think very big factor on geopolitical level of driving the battery industry right now besides AI.

00:14:03: Battery materials are super important one thing that different countries can focus on.

00:14:12: they've got different strengths, different countries and use that to collaborate across kind of US Europe in strengthen those relationships.

00:14:24: And Australia?

00:14:26: Yeah but I think it's a good segue towards our next guest.

00:14:29: Yeah,

00:14:31: very excited to have them on board.

00:14:33: Because for us we see material as really in the focus and especially a material which normally was not in the focused so much.

00:14:42: We talked about Nikke, we talked about Koba for ages and Lithium as well But no one is talking about graphite And although it the dependency is so high.

00:14:53: So we have an interesting company trying to find solutions to reduce dependencies of Chinese graphite localize them both in Europe and here in the US.

00:15:05: so it's an interesting company.

00:15:08: I didn't know that much before.

00:15:10: Yeah, I had a good relationship with them and it's nice to kind of bridge that gap especially what we're doing.

00:15:16: You know you are very much focused well have been focussed on Europe for battery news and expanded that way and Volta Foundation started in North America as expanded globally.

00:15:27: so... It is really good

00:15:29: fit!

00:15:30: We

00:15:30: had small project but i was personally not involved.

00:15:34: So its the first time i meet our new guest Sophie & Steen.

00:15:38: Yes

00:15:39: good relationship with them and looking forward to have a supporting and helping kind of get eyes on their growth in the

00:15:48: future.

00:15:49: Perfect, should we invite him in?

00:15:51: Yes!

00:15:54: So Sophie we met back here May at CIBF.

00:15:58: I was near each other for couple years now so amazing to have you on our podcast about True Matters and you as well, Steen.

00:16:07: I've also interviewed Daniella as part of my women power interview series which was amazing.

00:16:13: so i think it's great to hear from you guys how far you've come um and kind of delve into that.

00:16:20: So yeah let's kick off.

00:16:22: then Sophie please tell me a bit more about your role what Carbon X is doing?

00:16:27: Yeah sure thanks for the invite on with you guys.

00:16:32: So I am head of sales at CarbonX which means lots of business development, i joined the company seven years ago and we have been active in five years fully, segueing from another lots of other industries actually and then finding out that our material could replace graphite.

00:16:54: So as soon we found that out there was a full-on into the battery industry and thats what we've been focusing on.

00:17:01: working with their partners and qualifying for materials brought us here to you too.

00:17:07: Perfect and Steen?

00:17:08: You know your got bit different backgrounds based in the UK specifically, but tell us a bit more about that.

00:17:15: Yeah look I'm Steen McCollum and i'm the Chief Commercial Officer at CarbonX.

00:17:19: my background is automotive for...I've been an automotive engineer all my life started at Jaguar Land Rover under the ownership of Ford BMW so seen quite a lot.

00:17:30: And then my route into where we are now kind have got involved with new technology.

00:17:36: at jaguar land rover really enjoyed bringing it on got involved in LED lighting, so I really enjoyed that sort of like energy efficient technology coupled with the design freedom and the use of innovative materials.

00:17:51: And bringing it together from Jaguilandro moved into the supply base in the same way and thoroughly enjoyed the job of industrialising new technologies bring to market into electric vehicles.

00:18:06: Great!

00:18:07: So as we are now in US right now in Detroit Beautiful view here behind you, unfortunately.

00:18:13: You cannot see it.

00:18:14: the question for me is a Dutch company.

00:18:17: Why are we in the US?

00:18:18: What brings your hair and how do you see current development here?

00:18:22: um so why The u.s.. well We didn't start with the us And we started actually were European Company mm-hmm and That's where headquarters hours around years.

00:18:35: but if we actually started our manufacturing and material in China.

00:18:41: And that's where we are today with our partner, but the US has been driven by our customers' focus as led us to be more U.S.-centered than this is what focusing a lot of time on.

00:18:56: why were here today.

00:18:57: Okay, and you're talking about an American company bringing it?

00:19:02: Yeah, yeah sure.

00:19:04: We are working with cell makers so that is our primary goal Working with cell-makers and OEMs car OEM's And lots of the customers actually Asian companies but they are manufacturing in US Of course.

00:19:20: So that has indeed as a scene said driven us to the U?

00:19:24: S Our production scale up To be in the u s let say The first production scaleup outside of China will be here, yeah.

00:19:32: Okay good can you say share a little bit where it's here or?

00:19:38: We can't and we hope to share more in the future.

00:19:41: but right now um...we can't..but it is in the

00:19:43: U.S.,

00:19:44: and yes we're actually starting to scale up that now and win contract discussions at this moment.

00:19:53: So stay tuned.

00:19:55: Stay

00:19:55: tuned, yeah I'm curious but we see a lot of drive here in the US right now.

00:19:59: so how is your thinking and then process to select location?

00:20:04: It's

00:20:06: very much about the right partner.

00:20:08: our business model quite unique.

00:20:10: We partner with existing carbon black manufacturers.

00:20:17: it's big advantage.

00:20:20: But by partnering with those carbon black manufacturers, we need to find the right ones that are maybe already working in the automotive industry.

00:20:28: Which then means they're already prepared for our customers and now a customer's expectations of producing material at the right quality you know?

00:20:37: The right scale.

00:20:38: And so it's very much finding the right partner and then working without partner To kind of like said to qualify our material inside their facility and then be able to demonstrate that through our customers.

00:20:51: And we've said Europe, China, US expansion plans?

00:20:56: Are you looking at any other locations?

00:20:58: there's a lot on your plate

00:20:59: now!

00:21:00: There is quite a lot.

00:21:02: it's customer-led.

00:21:04: so all of the perceived material from our Chinese partner has gone really well.

00:21:12: qualification going well but US focus, and that's been driven many a few years ago by the Biden administration's Inflation Reduction Act which then meant everybody kind of refocused their attention on their own business model.

00:21:28: And where the growth was?

00:21:30: Then in recent years with tariffs there is sort even more of a focus on localizing here in the

00:21:38: U.S.,

00:21:39: offering an alternative graphite but it can be manufactured within And that's really important to our customers.

00:21:47: But then quickly followed, next by adding capacity in Asia but not China and nothing against China it is just.

00:21:55: they want sort of again a diversified supply chain around those regions in Asia and then followed by super-important European Union.

00:22:05: So there was an area focus we've been asked to accelerate.

00:22:09: so thats what were doing

00:22:11: As you said, alternative carbon.

00:22:13: Could explain a bit more what your doing as an engineer?

00:22:16: I would be very curious to learn exactly about

00:22:19: it.

00:22:21: Keep it simple.

00:22:23: Oh yeah, exactly!

00:22:24: I think that's why they hire me... keep it simple!

00:22:28: Exactly so.

00:22:29: our material has all the features needed to replace graphite.

00:22:34: It is not a graphite and that is huge benefit if you can imagine even on logistics and tariffs etc.

00:22:41: because Yeah That makes us very versatile On technical side.

00:22:46: We are bringing this materials market as an active material.

00:22:49: Our material is conductive, but it also stores lithium and it's compressible.

00:22:55: So those are very nutshell three majorly important items to make a thin quality electrode.

00:23:04: so yeah I guess maybe

00:23:06: add

00:23:06: our material for all the supply chain reasons.

00:23:11: we're already explaining on graphite alternative benefit of customers site because our material is more, let's say conductive and brings power as well in comparison to graphite.

00:23:27: And would it work with all different chemistries or are there some?

00:23:30: As far we're now looking at this very chemistry agnostic.

00:23:34: so that makes it indeed that we are working.

00:23:37: an NMC were working on LFP

00:23:43: And

00:23:43: Carbonix wants to produce the material and sell it?

00:23:46: Yes, I always try to simplify.

00:23:49: We want to deliver the powder.

00:23:52: so that means localization is indeed making our powder close to the Gigafactories then being able to supply.

00:24:00: Yeah!

00:24:01: I'm a production engineer so i plant several battery lines of standard coater myself coating this lorry... ...and got big headaches if someone changed any of the material properties, for quality of the slurry or the homogeneity and so on.

00:24:20: And how easy is it to change from natural graphite to your material?

00:24:26: Is there a huge change in equipment necessary...

00:24:30: Luckily no!

00:24:31: So our customers are using all the same equipments that they're using to make a slurry with graphite.

00:24:39: So they don't need to change any equipment.

00:24:42: They, of course, needs to change the formulation somewhat... ...they need to tweak that as far we can see.

00:24:48: if they want a different graphite then you also have to do this right?

00:24:53: In essence We really see it is being adopted as a drop-in however.. ..we go through qualification from the beginning and every customer has their own proprietary formulation.

00:25:09: So that's what we are working on a lot and then, making it as easy as possible.

00:25:15: so we're learning more about different mixing techniques how our material can work best to bring the protocols.

00:25:23: Oh!

00:25:23: Are you using that mixer?

00:25:25: Here you go.

00:25:25: hopefully take away some of the R&D time resources from their site because they've already done this.

00:25:35: I

00:25:36: guess You talk about China, are you working with them to produce cells?

00:25:40: Is that like in your plan?

00:25:42: or if you've got the material they're producing cells for you is part of the strategy.

00:25:48: Or it's literally just a battery materials?

00:25:50: Yeah so we'll just focus on the battery materials.

00:25:53: I think its easy and many startups get caught up in lots different things.

00:25:59: It really important stay focused.

00:26:00: what you good at And what were trying do.

00:26:03: So will manufacture our our version of synthetic graphite that will replace graphite in battery cells, and certain...in various percentages.

00:26:12: And that's what we sell.

00:26:13: That is how a partner makes it.

00:26:15: We develop this.

00:26:16: It's our IP.

00:26:17: Our chemistry was selling but the cell makers would be responsible for cell making.

00:26:22: So maybe to add?

00:26:23: In this course we work with Chinese companies because they have overseas factories So they will need local supply in the US, Europe and outside.

00:26:37: And that's where we are focusing our business development to be able then also supply them?

00:26:42: That means of course R&D is usually in China or Asia so it works with them as well.

00:26:51: Yes!

00:26:53: We know this is a hard market.

00:26:57: What makes battery materials so hard to bring into market?

00:27:00: Can you kind of delve in that?

00:27:02: yeah, I think and it's not even just better materials.

00:27:05: But the qualification cycles set by the OEMs on the tier ones are very strict.

00:27:09: It's all about bringing to market a low-risk product at the end of the day.

00:27:14: So with any other qualification.

00:27:16: You've proven everything.

00:27:17: The heart thing is that can take three four five years And consumer electronics might be three years but EVs is probably a four year cycle.

00:27:27: But there are ways to kind of reduce the friction, and our job is try accelerate that timing.

00:27:34: We can't get past the fact we have to demonstrate our material in very strict environments... ...to help cell manufacturers demonstrate it at OEMs.

00:27:45: So its a four or five year process And takes quite a lot effort for getting ready.

00:27:53: And if you think about that qualification process in the OEMs, there's three pillars.

00:27:58: So the further you go into qualification and you have to satisfy all three pillars of performance quality and commercial.

00:28:05: So startups often they'll have a good technical offering.

00:28:08: so you always probably start with the performance first.

00:28:11: then we did the same.

00:28:13: Have to demonstrate performance first but then you also have to prepare their future for demonstrating and the right scale.

00:28:24: And not just you, your suppliers also have to demonstrate that.

00:28:29: so there's a lot of working getting ready for customer business then.

00:28:34: obviously they're most important in getting at the right price otherwise it won't work for them.

00:28:42: Sorry!

00:28:42: You talked about supplies.

00:28:43: I wanted to dive into.

00:28:45: what do we actually need?

00:28:48: your material.

00:28:49: So we need supplies that also are at scale, so there's one of the strengths of CarbonX is we have no downstream invention...so often you get a new material to sell upstream.

00:29:01: but now actually sometimes that requires a new process and new material.

00:29:06: well with CarbonX we use materials from the existing industries in the food and medical industry already at scale....in fact sourced and qualified those materials into our process.

00:29:19: And that means when the time comes to show up, stream their benefits.

00:29:24: we can do that really easily but thats important because it reduces friction in bringing a product market.

00:29:33: So for you have talked about this start-up being different, a bit strange.

00:29:40: Tell me what that means?

00:29:42: Exactly!

00:29:44: So I do explain sometimes to people because... What is strange is we have scaled up our production before we have, let's say gone through the qualification of our material till the commercial adoption at one client.

00:30:00: So usually what I really notice is when people enter a conversation with us they you know, probably maybe you can give me a hundred grams.

00:30:12: So then I have to explain well we're a bit strange.

00:30:16: actually i can give you a lot of material if you want because we already scaled up our production so that production is actually at...if it's fully running its one hundred tons in one day!

00:30:28: That's very different from most material startups and yeah..so I guess it makes all the sense they need a bit of time to understand that because so many also other battery material companies, of course struggle with exactly the moment in development where you want to give everyone a lot of materials but don't have any yet.

00:30:51: So thats fully understood and luckily we dont' have that problem.

00:30:57: You must have alot customers kind of asking you for material then, if we've got some.

00:31:02: Yes I mean yes exactly.

00:31:04: so uh We try to make that step as let's say easy as possible.

00:31:09: Of course we have our procedures of onboarding customers but indeed it means That is one the reasons industry as business development, because we know that one of our strengths is actually proofs at scale.

00:31:27: That means if we are competing for R&D time and being an active material in their cells this will be a big advantage to them.

00:31:40: so make it clear ask me anything then try to supply you.

00:31:47: Sounds like a great business case.

00:31:50: Makes business sense!

00:31:53: So what are the out-of-the-business perspectives?

00:31:55: The next steps as we're scaling up production now globally in different locations, but also do you have commercial targets and downstream integration or partnerships here at your...

00:32:08: Yeah I think these we touched on it going down stream.

00:32:11: We have to get this supply base ready.

00:32:15: Supplies that can already demonstrate they can scale with the right, you know to meet our specification.

00:32:20: We've got very strict specifications.

00:32:22: They have to demonstrate that.

00:32:23: so downstream partnerships and collaborations That you can then formally set up Super important but also we touch on it The right price.

00:32:32: this are the cost model.

00:32:34: Our costs model is super critical And if you can often you can demonstrate performance.

00:32:39: You might be able to demonstrate quality But you can't provide the material at the right price.

00:32:44: Our benefit is that we're already at them in manufacture at scale.

00:32:48: So because we partner with existing manufacturers, We can take the benefit of those economies of scale and pass them on to our customers.

00:32:57: so getting ready for business requires that partnership.

00:33:02: downstream upstream With the manufacturer's raw material but also the suppliers Of our critical raw materials simply make out products.

00:33:11: It's a full circle that you need to get ready.

00:33:16: So supply base, getting the customers into our material and reduce friction for those customers so they can test it and access the benefits of our materials as quickly as possible.

00:33:30: And then downstream making sure we can demonstrate We've got set up at right quality The right scale At the right price Which Carbon X is quite unique in that It attracted me to the business, you know.

00:33:45: To come into a business where we've got good performance traction We have fast charge inherent fast charger in our product.

00:33:53: We install lithium and replace synthetic graphite Something genuine to offer.

00:33:58: And then also the fact that we partner with existing manufacturers means That now were not building a facility Where capex lean Which is super important.

00:34:10: We don't pass that cost on new production quite quickly without too much trouble.

00:34:17: And then downstream, those partners and suppliers where we can get the right pricing to make sure that our cost model... ...and those economies of scale could be passed on as quickly as possible is super important.

00:34:27: Then you join together with a localization story here in the US.

00:34:32: We're not trying to push out Chinese materials but just try to offer an alternative But it has to be at the right quality or performance.

00:34:40: very importantly prosperity with China, which we can do.

00:34:45: And that's unusual

00:34:48: Maybe to add because some people also tell me then when they told this story like well... That almost sounds too good to be true.

00:34:55: Why is not everyone using it now?

00:34:59: Already right and I guess To replace graphite Which the standard material for years mostly huge companies and make them change their materials, go through the qualifications.

00:35:14: And then with everything in the battery industry now being under so much pressure I do really see that we need to tick all those boxes as seen just mentioned... ...and still it means that we have to convince people.

00:35:28: We need be very sharp on having the R&D teams and everyone have our material on their priority list, still.

00:35:37: Even though I hope that had a story we're telling sounds compelling but yeah it doesn't mean its easy.

00:35:44: no And there's alot of noise in market as well isn't there?

00:35:47: We've talked about focus like...I'm sure theres companies who want to stay focused and exploring other materials.

00:35:56: they just wanna get things out.

00:35:59: That is what we hear a lot.

00:36:00: They are focused on.

00:36:02: now they need to show their investors, everyone that can produce.

00:36:08: so I think literally What's the right word?

00:36:15: The resources really for R&D shrink.

00:36:17: I think that is something maybe we've all seen in recent years, there are just less people and teams get smaller.

00:36:24: so it's something you need to get through that.

00:36:29: All veteran material and all starters needs to be able to do

00:36:33: this.

00:36:33: It was quite encouraging as resources were tights.

00:36:36: yet Carbon X is qualifying with... several customers getting quite deep into qualification now, is a good sign because they don't have any spare resources.

00:36:49: So if you're not of interest then they will drop you off and focus on other things because they have their own internal KPIs in terms of bringing the right materials to market at the right price And I think that's an area itself.

00:37:05: Startups need to think about what the customer is worried about And it depends on which pillar you talk to, they all have their own internal problems and KPIs to eat.

00:37:18: Earlier we talked also about the timing so I think both European Union but also US government understood the good quality of tendencies in graphite worldwide.

00:37:35: The Department for War here even starts leasing out space under military bases which I think is a bit scary, but it shows also how important this material is and how dependent currently the whole world of natural graphite from China.

00:37:50: So... And how do you think that will help you?

00:37:55: Also change how America can become more independent?

00:37:59: Is there way to do or just drop on hot stone?

00:38:07: We still need work with Chinese materials.

00:38:11: I don't think there's, um...I think everybody we speak to understands that it is part of a balanced system and maybe its not balanced right now which is why you get this localization or nationalisation in this conversation.

00:38:26: Now the Biden administration did through inflation reduction and Trump administration doing it through tariffs decisions, local decisions here in the US.

00:38:39: that then drives behavior.

00:38:40: In the tier one cell manufacturers and the OEMs.

00:38:44: so EV is heavily coupled to.

00:38:47: if you're qualifying EV also qualify other sectors And those battery cells they want.

00:38:54: use that same battery cell again and again in different sectors which was great for us.

00:38:59: The localization story is important.

00:39:01: It has been incentivized.

00:39:03: They are obviously finding ways of doing it And so, you know what?

00:39:07: We think one of the push in America is to have zero Chinese materials within the battery cell.

00:39:15: That's really tough to do and European Union are looking for high percentage of local materials and pushing that legislation.

00:39:22: The benefit of Carbon X. here in the US we have a nine-to-nine point nine cent made in America because our materials can be sourced from within the border.

00:39:35: not because we're trying to work against Chinese materials, but just try and offer what our customers want which is an alternative.

00:39:43: And help diversify that supply chain.

00:39:45: then it reduces risk of any geopolitics.

00:39:53: Now looking also a little bit in the future.

00:39:57: yesterday I checked different companies here working on dry coating for example where you produce small film laminated how your material It's ready for that.

00:40:07: Is it?

00:40:08: Yeah, so I mean look carbon X is super versatile.

00:40:13: um

00:40:15: i think if there's one thing That we have learned over the years at The company exists is that focus is important.

00:40:21: but luckily our Our partners our prospective clients are looking At many different ways to use the material.

00:40:29: okay So Dve dry coating is definitely One of them.

00:40:35: mixing with different kinds of other chemicals, with silicone.

00:40:39: Definitely one of them.

00:40:42: Yeah name it and I guess that there's interest for it And we will find out exactly.

00:40:48: you know what the material can be.

00:40:52: The biggest part in a market which eventually is our commercial success Right now looks like lithium-ion is the way to go.

00:41:02: Let us see.

00:41:03: Are you getting that data and information, feedback from your customers as well then?

00:41:08: Yeah.

00:41:08: You have to ask but I think genuinely...

00:41:13: Not really giving it like come on look at this!

00:41:16: But i think there is an understanding.

00:41:18: we do need to see what they've been their results in a way, because otherwise we can't help them to progress as well.

00:41:28: So I think there's an understanding that if you want to speed up together then you do need to share data together and so far i think that were quite happy with how this is going.

00:41:39: Is it collaboration?

00:41:40: Because If theres open dialogue than really helping speeding the process helps us find ways of using our materials.

00:41:53: Traction we have is where the dialogue's more open and The slower, when it's more closed.

00:42:00: so they can help themselves And they can Help us by having that sort of like Open dialog and our technical teams are More than happy to get into detail China work out how To move forward with the chemistry optimization

00:42:13: yeah?

00:42:14: And How Can our listeners the industry help support organizations Like yourself or to kind of Get to that production scale?

00:42:23: I think it's when you look at the event we've got here and the work that Volta Foundation do, the dinner we had last night.

00:42:29: The networking ability to communicate across many different levels in terms of communication talking to OEMs and cell manufacturers so a low-risk environment is where they operate.

00:42:46: In terms of helping us there needs to be resistance for change.

00:42:51: No one wants to change the chemistry because they just want to optimize their yields.

00:42:55: So that's a customer point of view, no problem, I completely understand it.

00:42:58: yet They also want innovative new materials.

00:43:02: and what material is from local market?

00:43:05: That doesn't compute.

00:43:06: so there has be some flexibility in what they do.

00:43:10: The engineers love your technology but not usually a problem.

00:43:17: My friends in the purchasing arena and commercial arena have such a massive cost pressure here, because of tariffs.

00:43:23: And due to the risk in geopolitics.

00:43:26: they had to do so much work on trying to find alternatives.

00:43:31: but you must do it at the right quality.

00:43:33: So there has to be a willingness.

00:43:36: take new materials like us then help companies like startups.

00:43:41: CarbonX is a mature startup.

00:43:43: I would say We've got scale already, hundred tons per day.

00:43:46: we have a good cost rather.

00:43:48: but if they wanted to improve the chance of bringing things into market then earlier contract visibility and early commercial discussions helps free up money.

00:44:00: it helps get funding in startups which means that start-ups can help themselves and improve how they can prepare the quality systems, the manufacturing procedures to be able to demonstrate quicker that they can scale.

00:44:18: So for Carbon X I think in industry having that sort of like willingness to move towards us as we try to move toward them would really help.

00:44:27: Can you ask a rather provocative question?

00:44:32: Looking just what is happening with China at this speed are a little bit too late to the party and maybe also, too small?

00:44:40: To change something.

00:44:41: Yeah so it's a good question are we too late?

00:44:44: I think if we just now even now were seeing legislation in regulation coming here In The US to help accelerate localization diversification It has been going on at the OEM level one level now federal level.

00:45:00: We're getting pushed for that.

00:45:02: So i think timing is perfect especially with our ability to bring capacity without having to build a facility is quite unique business model, but that business model will help accelerate.

00:45:16: And we can grow the market as well.

00:45:18: and so I think now timing's right.

00:45:20: are we too small?

00:45:21: No definitely not too small because we partner with these manufacturers, the carbon like manufactures.

00:45:28: Our team suddenly expands into their process team.

00:45:32: Their quality team Their service is majoring in the team, so CarbonX is much bigger than their company.

00:45:40: It's all about our own partnerships and really valued partnerships with our manufacturing customer and manufacturing partners.

00:45:47: I like that confidence, Anna!

00:45:49: So how many people are at CarbonX now?

00:45:52: Over twenty growing indeed And looking to add maybe even up to thirty next twelve months or more.

00:46:05: So I guess you're in Delft, right?

00:46:07: What a very beautiful city!

00:46:11: You won't have difficulties to bring people over.

00:46:14: A lot of the people that are already working with carbon-x come from the Netherlands for the job and are with us a longer period already.

00:46:24: so people definitely like it.

00:46:27: It's in nice environment, we try to make them the best environment as well.

00:46:32: So when you're hiring they will be mostly endelved.

00:46:35: initially We have our laboratory endelfed.

00:46:39: many of the hires would be technicians but were also going expand operations team.

00:46:45: I myself still involved in lots of logistics, for example.

00:46:51: And all those.

00:46:52: you can imagine that when we start to supply repetitively.

00:46:58: Those operations are going to need a lot more attention and a lot More detail.

00:47:04: so I'm really to prepare for That right now.

00:47:05: So those Are also jobs that We're adding To the teams.

00:47:08: yeah then You are hiring the US as well Right

00:47:12: Eventually?

00:47:12: yes, because yeah our US production will start up next year.

00:47:20: So that definitely needs a team on the ground eventually as well.

00:47:24: Yeah

00:47:25: Well you can use the batch creator or virtual creator when it comes around.

00:47:29: Yes

00:47:30: I'm sure we will.

00:47:34: Great!

00:47:37: We'll have look at what's been going over last couple of months.

00:47:42: This could have stood out to you guys and your organisation, had an impact or had any thoughts on.

00:47:52: Looking back over the last few months I think this industry vibe has been there for a while but seeing some signals coming at Graphite pricing adjustment of Chinese authorities reducing the incentives and these subsidies in China.

00:48:13: We've got oversupply there, which has all kept price down.

00:48:16: but we're kind of seen some news that prices are starting to increase.

00:48:21: then with oil issues around the world I think it must be a huge amount pressure.

00:48:27: so i think someone was interested over last few months

00:48:34: Looking ahead, so what are you looking forward to?

00:48:36: What is happening in the battery industry.

00:48:38: Yeah I'm super stoked about the Carbon X moving towards contract conclusion and i can't say anything now.

00:48:48: but... ...I am confident that next few months we will be able talk again.

00:48:56: This has been great!

00:48:58: We have another event February which maybe it's a perfect time for some news.

00:49:03: So yeah, that's what I'm looking forward to.

00:49:05: And in the industry anything

00:49:08: you see happening there might change the course of battery development?

00:49:12: Yeah i think a lot... In terms of regulation and legislation we've spoke about what is happening here in the US That will consolidate and focus mines.

00:49:22: We would expect The European Union moving slower But it still moves in this same direction.

00:49:29: It all starts with some compelling arguments to increase the pace within Europe.

00:49:35: With everything we spoke about here in the US, I think will see the same accelerating in Europe which is great for us.

00:49:41: Well seeing a lot of staff that's still coming through... To be honest i can't quite believe it just with how challenging has been and there are lots of staff at SIL joining our starter program from across the globe And its great to kind of see that theres still that desire push the industry forward.

00:50:02: We benefit from being involved with Volta and we find it really useful, also then market data analysis that we can have access to is so helpful for us and our investors who want to understand where's the market going?

00:50:19: And this is invaluable.

00:50:21: Yeah,

00:50:22: and on Europe look it is moving forward.

00:50:27: We're actually going to have our CTO Daniela stage at the European Parliament event the third of November The win-win events.

00:50:34: so that really shows as well that startups battery industry It is getting a lot of attention And we need you just keep talking to each other about the right topics.

00:50:45: So yeah That is an exciting event that we also look forward too In

00:50:51: Russell,

00:50:54: right?

00:50:55: Right.

00:50:55: So I think that kind of draws things to an end especially with all these events coming up.

00:51:00: we've got our next...

00:51:01: We have a very important event to promote and because also our podcast course will be in Berlin for the Future Battery Forum in November

00:51:13: You will be there as

00:51:14: well.

00:51:16: Unfortunately, we already have another guest scheduled for the podcast.

00:51:20: so...

00:51:20: We need to share!

00:51:24: So

00:51:24: that's the twenty-fourth and twenty-fifth of November?

00:51:28: It is a great event.

00:51:29: I mean here in Detroit The Motor City And right now it has a lot of drive for batteries.

00:51:38: Actually at Berlin There are gigafactories running with Tesla And they're already producing batteries and we are really interested in getting their feedback.

00:51:48: There's also a tour from the future battery form to the Tesla factory, very exclusive so you can apply for it now!

00:51:55: So yeah... We think that next nice days will matter?

00:51:58: Let us make it count!

00:52:00: Make It Count!

00:52:00: See You In Berlin!

00:52:03: Thankyou very much!

00:52:08: So..we'll see you again in Berlin.

00:52:11: When is it?

00:52:11: It's the twenty-third, twenty fourth, twenty fifth of November.

00:52:15: So the battery social on the twenty third and then conference in the twenty forth and twenty fifth.

00:52:19: Great!

00:52:20: And you're moderating the women in batteries

00:52:21: panel.

00:52:22: Yes we have a woman in batteries session during the conference.

00:52:27: Is that allowed to come as male individual?

00:52:30: Allies

00:52:31: welcome!

00:52:33: I will be moderating AI in battery production if its way and decreased dependencies from China.

00:52:41: I have a very interesting guest as well, so stay tuned!

00:52:46: But also we would like to thank our partner the Future Battery Forum And invite all of you To join us in Berlin A little bit last minute but still it will be great to see some of you... ...and convince even more.

00:53:01: We have a discount code for twenty percent that we'd like share with you.

00:53:05: So please use, if you register FBF-twenty six battery news to register and save twenty percent.

00:53:12: And see each other...

00:53:14: See

00:53:15: ya!